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RAVISHANKAR: As we mostly collect seeds from rural and tribal communities we call it a community genebank but actually the name of the genebank is the Scarascia Mugnozza Genetic Resources Centre. We collect from communities because they are the ones who have the seeds.

KOTHARI: In that case, the 1 lakh [100,000] accessions of Dr. Rana's [National Bureau of Plant Genetic Resources] would also be a 'community seedbank'.

VIJAYALAKSHMI: To add a question on the topic: I would like to know on what terms and conditions the Centre [MSSRF] accepts seed of varieties and on what terms they give it back to the community. We find in several ex situ collections that, after conservation, it is very difficult for farmers to get back their seeds.

RAVISHANKAR: We collect seed along with lots of detailed information: for example, who is cultivating it, who has supplied it, when it has been supplied and how long it has been cultivated. In case we were to give it to a plant breeder, we would have to develop specific mechanisms for getting the royalties back to the farmers from whom these seeds have been collected. We want to act as a resource center for the tribals — that is our primary aim and that is why we are collecting. So far, we haven't ventured to give the material to anyone else. We need to help develop a legal system so that the tribals will not be deprived of their benefits. They have been the custodians of landraces.

SAHAI: I would like to add a comment here with respect to genebanks or storage centers or seedbanks. I have an apprehension I would like to throw into the arena because it relates to the whole question of ownership and rights and who derives benefits (i.e. Intellectual Property Rights). How many levels of storage or how many levels of ownership of genebanks are we going to be looking at? At the one level, we have a national level, like NBPGR. At the other level we have the community bank, where communities themselves control the access to the germplasm and where they are able to devise the terms and conditions of that access. The intermediary level that Ravishankar brought up [MSSRF] concerns institutions between these two aforementioned. There should be some uniformity in discussing the modus operandi of these, the terms and conditions. I see a certain, let us say, gray area.

KOTHARI: Kshirsagar mentioned that 90% of the people interviewed [in the Jaipur District of Orissa State] suggested that the new, so-called 'improved' variety should be grown on fertile lands. He also mentioned that farmers grow these varieties closer to their homes because they require more management. What is the correlation between the two? Would there be a negative impact if one does not match the other — or do they inevitably match?

KSHIRSAGAR: l said that farmers grow improved cultivars nearer to their houses and there are several implications of this. If you see the landscape of Orissa, in general, and the villages studied, in particular, they cannot transport fertilizer by vehicular means; they have to take it on their shoulders or on their heads. Whatever green manure they use,they apply to the fields nearer to the house.

Another reason may be to reduce travelling time for observing the improved varieties, which need better management. Andf armers do believe that traditional cultivars do better under a low fertility situation.

REDDI: I would like to congratulate Kshirsagar and Ravishankar on their presentations which moved me very much in the sense that I was able to reconstruct the history of the Green Revolution. In l965, Dr. Richharia vehemently argued that, within India, we had ten or twelve local high yielding rice cultivars — superior to those recommended by IRRI. His statements were based on five to six years of experimentation. But at that time, our government was unable to listen to this advice.

KSHIRSAGAR: I consider myself too young to talk about the Green Revolution but I think we were expecting some magic. Even now, when I go to the tribal areas, I listen to people say that extension workers come and give high yielding varieties — but there is no follow-up action. They say these varieties cannot be stored. So now, they are losing both, traditional cultivars as well as the high yielding. When the people go to talk to the extension officers, their concerns fall on deaf ears.

BELLON: We have been talking a lot about the advantages of local cultivars. Perhaps we also have to focus on the disadvantages, the trade-offs, because that is what really creates opportunities for diversity. In studying ecology, I have learned that there is not one organism that takes over everything because when you grow bigger, then you have to sacrifice in other aspects. Farmers tend to maintain a lot of different varieties because certain varieties perform well under certain circumstances, but not under others. If we can focus on both the disadvantages and advantages, we can also understand such opportunities for diversity.

GUPTA: A methodological point. There are two or three things the researchers presenting could have done to get more light on their data. One is to make a plot by plot map of the village and put all the varieties found on it, for both seasons and, it possible, over several years (previous, current, next). We did this in 1985 and in 1988 with Dr. Maurya in Eastern India. Several questions that arose this morning, for example, on fertility and varieties, and which were not answered properly, could have been made clearer ..... If you had made maps of several factors, for example, drainage maps, weed maps, date of sowing maps, farmyard manure application, varietal maps, you would notice that with a variability of 1.5 to 2 inches in the drainage level, the variety used would change. This is very easily understandable and precise and empirical and also helps in distinguishing another factor which caused some confusion this morning, about class preferences.

We got interested:in this issue to disentangle class from ecological distinctions. You would notice, for example, that there are patches where everybody grows a particular variety, no matter rich or poor, and in that case, of course, it is the ecological factor which is determinant — just as in other cases, class variables will come into play. There are not neat distinctions which one can make in all conditions of drainage and elevation. Such mapping can also help us avoid making oversimplistic generalizations.

RANA: It was remarked this morning that farmers may find it difficult to get materials from the national genebank? Was this an impression or based on real contact? Let me explain the background.

A genebank generally serves as a safety mechanism. At the village or community level, the farmer may decide that, due to a shortage of rainfall or temperature or some other consideration, he is not going to plant a particular variety or even a crop. So, there should be a provision on site where one can store for one season or more the materials that are required to sustain agriculture in that area. If that does not happen, then an effort is made to collect these seeds and put them in the general area collected, not really on site, but in the broad ecological area. We call it an 'active germplasm site' because from there, the farmers or communities, who have contributed, can get these materials back. These centers also supply researchers who are engaged entirely in improving the productivity of these crops ....

For these active collections, we are trying to develop what we call 'medium storage conditions' so that one can store for five to eight years .... This entire collection is also, theoretically put into long-term storage, and there are scientific methods to store these seeds almost indefinitely — not all crops, but the fraction which can be dried and are not sensitive to low temperatures .... A large number of perennials, particularly, are either in the form of culture or embryos, and so on.

So it is not really that these three levels are working at cross purposes. ln fact, they are expected to reinforce each other. The only difficulty is that since you have lakhs (100,000s) of farm households, you cannot work directly with all of them. ...There should not be any misgiving that the national and other systems or the community systems are working at cross purposes. ln fact, they grow together and this system [NBPGR] has to reinforce the community center — if it is to have worthwhile success.

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